[J Santy (JSanty)]

I'd like to know the logic behind prohibiting dealers from showing pictures of the guitars they have in stock, especially those smaller dealers that specialize in historic and custom shop items.

The rumor I heard was the Guitar Center / Musician's Friend used their bulk buying power as leverage to get Gibson to prohibit the smaller dealers from showing stock because logistically, it was not feasible for GC/MF to do so, and the other stores were therefore more successful in this market. So that by making it more difficult for the smaller store to advertise their product, GC / MF could play on a more level field.

I don't know if there's any truth to this, but I do feel, as a buyer who wants to shop on-line for guitars, that this has actually makes it harder for me to buy a Gibson since I can't even see what a dealer has available or what the item actually looks like. I don't like being limited to just my local brick and mortor store, I like to shop around the country because the particular products carried by these various dealers may differ in what they are, availability, and even price.

Thanks for your time Henry.

~ J

[S Cloud (steve_man)]

Sweetwater photographs their guitars...and they are a big seller of gear...

[J Santy (JSanty)]

S Cloud (steve_man), on 15 July 2010 - 01:06 PM, said:

Sweetwater photographs their guitars...and they are a big seller of gear...

Yes, there are a few who can do it, I believe they are referred to as super-dealers and they pay a premium buy-in for the privilege. But that doesn't apply to most dealers, especially most mom & pop stores. From my consumer perspective, it should be allowed across the board. As a buyer, I would like access to all the Gibson inventory out there because its just more choices from which to make a purchase. Especially when you consider that the historic and custom shop guitars, not to mention special runs and such, can vary quite a bit and are not done any justice by a lack of consumer presentation.

[D Phillips (daveinspain)]

Guitar Center always post the seria number of the guitar with a photo of it, so if you do buy on line you can be sure you get the guitar you wanted. I doubt that Gibson doesn't allow smaller dealers to do the same... Doesn't make sense.

[G Skelly (guitabob123)]

D Phillips (daveinspain), on 16 July 2010 - 12:40 PM, said:

Guitar Center always post the seria number of the guitar with a photo of it, so if you do buy on line you can be sure you get the guitar you wanted. I doubt that Gibson doesn't allow smaller dealers to do the same... Doesn't make sense.

But thats what they do. Check out centrecitymusic.com. They are a superdealer I believe and sell many Gibsons a year.The shop its self is very small however They have a very good reputation and have very friendly staff. Unfortuantly they are not allowed to show any Gibsons online. This is an annnoyance to those of us who want to purchase a guitar from a good, friendly, reliable dealer and not a massive store such as Guitar Center or Musicians Friend

[D Phillips (daveinspain)]

G Skelly (guitabob123), on 16 July 2010 - 03:15 PM, said:

But thats what they do. Check out centrecitymusic.com. They are a superdealer I believe and sell many Gibsons a year.The shop its self is very small however They have a very good reputation and have very friendly staff. Unfortuantly they are not allowed to show any Gibsons online. This is an annnoyance to those of us who want to purchase a guitar from a good, friendly, reliable dealer and not a massive store such as Guitar Center or Musicians Friend

Henry is this true? Some dealers are allowed to post photos of their stock and others aren't?

[t muir (tedm)]

Yes I must say when I first came across the Gibson ban on dealers actually showing the guitar advertised I was very unhappy about it, I had purchased a wonderful J200 custom vine that had I not seen the picture, wouldn't have known about this guitar, and of course the dealer (and Gibson) would have lost a sale ....so when the dealership were prevented from showing the actual Gibson guitars and yet could show their Martin and Taylor guitars .... I thought Gibson were not only being arrogant, but were shooting themselves in the foot!
The dealership it turns out after a couple of years or so can now show the actual guitars again, but whether it involved crossing someones palm with silver, I don't know.
Surely in this competitive global marketplace it would be better to allow dealers to do all they can to sell their stock.

[H Juszkiewicz (HenryJ)]

We make a distinction between a brick and mortar dealer, and an internet dealer. A dealer with a store makes a commitment to the community in which the store is located. The dealer pays rent, hires employees, invests in inventory and hopefully is focused on providing exceptional service, of which seeing and touching product is central to the service provided. These entrepreneurs take a risk in business and in investing in our brands.

Internet dealers, on the other hand, make huge investments also, but in a different way. If you have seen the distribution warehouses of Musician's Friend, Sweetwater, Amazon, or other competent ecommerce merchants, their commitment to a different form of customer service is very evident.

Both experiences are unique and offer pluses and minuses, but are focused on providing the best experience for the type of merchant they are.

I do not believe we need many internet merchants to provide a competitive market place and consumer choice. We believe by going to world class ecommerce merchants, we are providing the very best experience that you can get. These merchants can show pictures of product and fully support internet sales.

When I buy a guitar personally, I want to touch it, listen to it acoustically and get a real feel for the instrument and its individual character. You can only do this by going to a store with inventory. I do not believe guitars are like keyboards, where every product is identical, but more like a suit or clothing where you want to make sure the fit and look are just right.

When I first entered the industry, there were a handful of retailers, a bunch on 48th Street in New York City that intimidated retailers all over the country. Customer would walk in or call and say, I can get this same guitar for much less at _____. The issue is these superstores where doing as much as $50,000,000 in turn over in one of the world largest cities. Their economics were very different from most of the small merchants, who could not compete with the economics. On top of this, these large buyers typically extorted additional volume discounts that smaller merchants could not receive.

I set out to level the playing field. First we did not have volume discounts. That led to some serious issues with big retailers and you may remember that we chose not to do business for several years with some very big buyers. Secondly, we made a commitment to support the dealers that invested in our brands, be the dealer large or small. We want to allow all merchants the ability to make a living and receive a decent return on their at risk investment.

Small dealers are going out of business rapidly. I believe it is those that run excellent businesses be they large or small that will survive. Those that serve customers exceptionally will thrive regardless of their size. The ability to post pictures, or sell incremental product on the internet will not save those that do not meet an emerging higher standard, but subject consumers and our fans to risks they should not take.

There is a slippery slope between posting pictures of your store inventory and selling via the internet. What is the difference? I believe once you post product on the internet, your intent is to sell the product via the internet and this requires you to be an internet merchant in our scheme. You can be an internet merchant, but you have to be a best in class merchant with investments that reflect this.

When I buy product, I love to buy at sites like Amazon.com, Overstock.com, Newegg,com, because of their exceptional service. I know I will get the product quickly, I will get a great price, and they will stand behind the product if there are any problems. The have huge staffs that are available 24/7, huge investments in computer systems which allow product ratings and comments, and fully stocked warehouses with huge selections. That is the experience I want for our valuable fans and customers

All this being said, I think there must be a way we can support our non-internet channel partners better specifically regarding letting people know what inventory they have invested in. I have been talking about this with various people in the company. No solution yet, but I will continue to pursue a better way.

[D Phillips (daveinspain)]

Damn.... Henry, that was a very good and thorough explanation of the situation. You better be careful people are gonna start to like you....

[J Santy (JSanty)]

Thank you for taking the time to write that explanation. Unfortunately, it sounded to me like a lot of business double-speak. I'm not an educated business man, you are. And I totally concede that to you. But aren't I the guy all that education and complex business thought is designed for? To get me to give you my money? All I can tell you is that I buy a lot of guitars, but in the past few years that this no internet pictures policy has been in place, I have bought significantly less NEW Gibsons, because my choices are much more limited to what is local to me, and what is represented by stock photos used by the big box stores. I, like many, am quite the impulse buyer and when I see a great looking new Gibson that gives me GAS guess what, I buy it! I guess you're actually saving me money because without being able to shop the internet for Gibsons, I tend to buy less of them, at least new ones anyway.

Again thanks for taking the time to explain your point, and to read mine. My intention is not to offend, argue, or insult. But I just wanted to express my frustration because I am a Gibson fan and do miss clicking the net for all the cool stuff that used to be out there waiting for me to buy it (and still might be, but I'll never know now).

~ J

[J Hall (Jonny Rocker)]

The no inventory/pictures policy is really a bust to us lefties. I guess we are supposed to call every Gibson dealer in the US to track down a NOS Flying V or SG Faded?

Back in 2003 the only reason I knew the Flying V was available in left hand was because Centre City had a picture of it on their webpage.

The big online stores only carry the SG & LP STD from the Gibson USA line. The local GC has had a LP Studio, which is covered in gunk with rusty strings, forever. So much for any variety.

[M Brown (VoxMysteron)]

Well, Henry, speaking as a former New Yorker who shopped on 48th Street for years (and who worked around the corner for 15 years and often dropped in at lunch), I respectfully must disagree with you.

Let's look at who was there - Manny's, who always catered to what you'd call the carriage trade (musicians with big budgets), Sam Ash, Rudy's, We Buy Guitars, Alex Music, Silver & Horland, and one other small shop whose name escapes me at the moment. Of course Manny's and Sam Ash were big movers of Gibson product - but you forget that Sam Ash made its reputation as a regional store around the NY region, and that they were buying for ten or fifteen stores at a time, even back then. The Goodriches were only buying for their one location. You also don't mention that a lot of those stores specialized mainly in used Gibson product (e.g. We Buy).

The rents on 48th Street were and are extremely high, and getting higher - the block is adjacent to Rockefeller Center. That's what forced the Goodriches to sell Manny's to Sam Ash. However, even years ago, if you walked into Manny's just as Joe Average and not a well-known musician, you were not going to get any sort of exceptional discount. The 800 pound gorilla in terms of discounting was Sam Ash, simply because they were buying product to fill their Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island locations. 48th Street happened to have a large selection, but there were rarely bargains to be found unless you were looking at used stuff (which was priced to reflect the neighborhood).

Incidentally - who's still there? Sam Ash and Rudy's. Neither of which are known for rock-bottom pricing.

I can think of other high-end dealers whose normal selling price for Gibson product would beat a quoted at Sam Ash's 48th Street location - without even being prompted to deal.

That said, it is my position that Gibson should provide a level playing field for its dealers and its end-users, and the policy as it relates to inventory and photos makes it far more difficult to do so. I wish to be able to quickly consult several dealers without wasting their or my time - and at the prices that high-end instruments of necessity entail, that means everyone's time is more money into the equation. I don't see Martin, PRS or Rickenbacker enforcing such strange restrictions. If you want to have a MAP, or say "Call for pricing" - that's something that's understandable. But your policy simply makes it harder for people to find the right instrument from a wider selection of dealers.

[I Stoddard (Low-B 5-String)]

Three issues are being mixed here: internet SALES, internet ADVERTISING, and factory deauthorization.

As a professional in a commercial environment working as a government subcontractor, so I understand Mr. J's issues with overhead and margins all too well. As I understand it, Gibson has to request a minimum $$$ flow from a client store in order to cover the cost of an account for that store. Cost of an account involves everything from queueing ready stock at the shipping dock back through predicting next quarter's (year's) sales from them, so the right mix of guitars are built to avoid product supply shortages. If the client store can't help keep Gibson alive, Gibson can't return the favor, and are deauthorized as dealers by the factory.

A store that has not yet reached this situation might have some new and/or used items for sale. They might still be too small to have a web sales portal, but might advertise their in-store sales over the web via email flyers, ad pages with "call for price", and so on. If there are two to five such stores in a decent-sized metro area, that's a LOT of driving or calling to shop for something that could be cut down by seeing pictures via website. This is internet ADvertising serving the customer who still wants to touch their eventual purchase. I believe this illustrates the kind of "extension of permission"(???) to show Gibson product that we are discussing.

We already have clear examples of GC/MF or eBay internet SALES, so no need to explain that.

Ideally, next month, someone will wave a magic wand, the economy will improve, and Gibson will be able to relax its sales volume requirements for dealers and restore factory authorization to Former Dealers with no internet AD restrictions.

[P Cypert (Paul Cypert)]

I agree with the Business double speak comment. Effectively you're forcing those who would choose to shop at a local brick and mortar shop (albeit online) to visit a competitor to see a picture of the guitar they want to make. I don't know how others look at it, but to me that's just wrong.

So let's use me as a sample buyer. I live and travel overseas mostly. From Texas, but live in Singapore, Bangkok, Cambodia, etc most of the year. Therefore I do most of my shopping online. I STILL value personal touch and relationships though and would tend to rather want to deal with a smaller, local shop than a musicians friend.... even if the price is slightly higher. But I go to buy a Gibson... they can tell me what they have, but say they have an odd-run J-45 Gold top (I know these are specifically for one shop at the moment but for illustration sake). I haven't yet seen one and will have to go to a competitor to view the guitar.... and I'm still not able to see THAT PARTICULAR GUITAR.

In this day and age that's a huge crippling blow to their ability to do sales. By the time a vendor has rattled off that long answer you've just posted the business has moved elsewhere. I know I did for over 5 years when I first heard of this move and change forming... seems like I first heard about this around 2005 or so. A lot of vendors were grumbling about Gibson in those days. It was enough to steer me clear of them until this year and I only purchased the J45 as a filler because acoustic stock in Singapore is limited to Taylor and Gibson for the most part (unless you want to really be gouged). I saw potential in the guitar and it seems like Gibson wants to go the right route so I'm hanging on to it...

It's such a small thing to do and would show remarkable good will to just open this back up. You have this forum going and so it would seem you're after what the people want. I'd say then just let all post pictures of guitars they're selling. These shops are investing time and money into making you guys money (as well as themselves of course) why not just let them post pics? It in no way hurts the Gibson brand and only serves the shop to be able to sell their product.

Plus just think how good you guys will look to everyone and all the free press you'll get for doing nothing else than overriding a bad initial decision Couple that with a temporary price drop on acoustics like you did with the SG's last year and I guarantee you'll see a huge spike in quarter sales as well as getting some folks to warm a bit to this legendary brand.

[t muir (tedm)]

H Juszkiewicz (HenryJ), on 16 July 2010 - 05:42 PM, said:

We make a distinction between a brick and mortar dealer, and an internet dealer. A dealer with a store makes a commitment to the community in which the store is located. The dealer pays rent, hires employees, invests in inventory and hopefully is focused on providing exceptional service, of which seeing and touching product is central to the service provided. These entrepreneurs take a risk in business and in investing in our brands.

Internet dealers, on the other hand, make huge investments also, but in a different way. If you have seen the distribution warehouses of Musician's Friend, Sweetwater, Amazon, or other competent ecommerce merchants, their commitment to a different form of customer service is very evident.

Both experiences are unique and offer pluses and minuses, but are focused on providing the best experience for the type of merchant they are.

I do not believe we need many internet merchants to provide a competitive market place and consumer choice. We believe by going to world class ecommerce merchants, we are providing the very best experience that you can get. These merchants can show pictures of product and fully support internet sales.

When I buy a guitar personally, I want to touch it, listen to it acoustically and get a real feel for the instrument and its individual character. You can only do this by going to a store with inventory. I do not believe guitars are like keyboards, where every product is identical, but more like a suit or clothing where you want to make sure the fit and look are just right.

When I first entered the industry, there were a handful of retailers, a bunch on 48th Street in New York City that intimidated retailers all over the country. Customer would walk in or call and say, I can get this same guitar for much less at _____. The issue is these superstores where doing as much as $50,000,000 in turn over in one of the world largest cities. Their economics were very different from most of the small merchants, who could not compete with the economics. On top of this, these large buyers typically extorted additional volume discounts that smaller merchants could not receive.

I set out to level the playing field. First we did not have volume discounts. That led to some serious issues with big retailers and you may remember that we chose not to do business for several years with some very big buyers. Secondly, we made a commitment to support the dealers that invested in our brands, be the dealer large or small. We want to allow all merchants the ability to make a living and receive a decent return on their at risk investment.

Small dealers are going out of business rapidly. I believe it is those that run excellent businesses be they large or small that will survive. Those that serve customers exceptionally will thrive regardless of their size. The ability to post pictures, or sell incremental product on the internet will not save those that do not meet an emerging higher standard, but subject consumers and our fans to risks they should not take.

There is a slippery slope between posting pictures of your store inventory and selling via the internet. What is the difference? I believe once you post product on the internet, your intent is to sell the product via the internet and this requires you to be an internet merchant in our scheme. You can be an internet merchant, but you have to be a best in class merchant with investments that reflect this.

When I buy product, I love to buy at sites like Amazon.com, Overstock.com, Newegg,com, because of their exceptional service. I know I will get the product quickly, I will get a great price, and they will stand behind the product if there are any problems. The have huge staffs that are available 24/7, huge investments in computer systems which allow product ratings and comments, and fully stocked warehouses with huge selections. That is the experience I want for our valuable fans and customers

All this being said, I think there must be a way we can support our non-internet channel partners better specifically regarding letting people know what inventory they have invested in. I have been talking about this with various people in the company. No solution yet, but I will continue to pursue a better way.

[J GGoerge (joey257)]

This one I had to read twice, but think I see the answer...

Quote

We make a distinction between a brick and mortar dealer, and an internet dealer.... I believe once you post product on the internet, your intent is to sell the product via the internet and this requires you to be an internet merchant in our scheme {i.e. no longer a brick and mortar}...
...
I think there must be a way we can support our non-internet channel partners better specifically regarding letting people know what inventory they have invested in...No solution yet

[M Ryan (Malikon)]

I don't see why Gibson would care if a store wants to sell guitars through the store or also online. Lots of stores do both. Having pictures of your stock will only help you sell more guitars, not less.

It shouldn't even be any business or concern of Gibson how a store chooses to sell it's stock. It's just more heavy handed treatment from Gibson.

For a legendary company they sure have a draconian reputation and seem to be completely out of touch. I guess they do consider themselves the Ferrari of the guitar world, it's sad. They make some nice guitars, but at the end of the day it's still just a guitar. They're not as important as they think they are, and it costs them business.

[I Stoddard (Low-B 5-String)]

J Galante (Johnny G), on 28 July 2010 - 02:06 PM, said:

This one I had to read twice, but think I see the answer...

Quote

...once you post product on the internet, your intent is to sell the product via the internet....

Agreed. I think that is the dichotomy here. The CEO and the customers disagree on the terms of an "evaluation" the company makes.

I know of one provable, local exception. I patronize that B&M store that has no internet sales department. I tried to explain it in terms that might make sense, Advertising vs. sales mechanisms.

Onwards.

[S Higgs (particle)]

M Ryan (Malikon), on 28 July 2010 - 12:43 PM, said:

I don't see why Gibson would care if a store wants to sell guitars through the store or also online. Lots of stores do both. Having pictures of your stock will only help you sell more guitars, not less.

It shouldn't even be any business or concern of Gibson how a store chooses to sell it's stock. It's just more heavy handed treatment from Gibson.

For a legendary company they sure have a draconian reputation and seem to be completely out of touch. I guess they do consider themselves the Ferrari of the guitar world, it's sad. They make some nice guitars, but at the end of the day it's still just a guitar. They're not as important as they think they are, and it costs them business.

Here's my take on it - most brick & mortar dealers have geographic territories with some level of geographic exclusivity. The internet effectively allows any online dealer to sell into all the other dealers territories. Dealers get very upset about this and I've seen folk like Mesa/Boogie take away dealerships that sold into other dealer territories. Gibson's separation of Internet store (MF, Amazon) & brick & mortar store addresses this directly. The next step is to figure out how to allow brick & mortar stores to sell online (this will no doubt require the dealer agreements to be modified). Unfortunately, that's not going to be as simple as it sounds as a lot of dealers are going to object to any new competition.

[I Stoddard (Low-B 5-String)]

S Higgs (particle), on 02 August 2010 - 12:43 AM, said:

Here's my take on it -... The next step is to figure out how to allow brick & mortar stores to sell online (this will no doubt require the dealer agreements to be modified). ...

Hmmm.... My local B&M that was dropped does not have an online sales function.

What I do not understand (yet) is the lack of distinction between online pictures for in-store stock when there is no online sales function, and a full-blown internet store.

Mr. J courteously explained that Gibson viewed online display as intent for online sale, but without an online sale function I don't see how that can obtain?

My brain hurts. Off to think about tone instead of marketing.