[P Petiniot (Blues4U)]

Henry,

First off, I want to assure you that I am not against the large super store format, not the internet sales of Gibson Guitars.

I do know of many long time Gibson dealers that are no longer selling Gibson and not because they do not want to-

I understand that your sales staff gets far more bang for the buck when they cater to the big box/large market stores. I also understand that the market is very, very soft at the moment and Gibson and the "F" brand seem to have put all of their eggs in one basket.

I live in small town America and we have a locally owned music store that was a Gibson and Brand "F" dealer for over 30 years-Today they do not sell either brand because they couldn't meet their minimum dealer requirements-I do not have a problem with any manufacturer requiring their retailers to make a good faith offering/effort when it comes to stock on hand and yearly purchases BUT - When the market changes in such a drastic was as it has the past 10 years, with huge internet retailers and big box stores, the dealers do have to learn to adjust their tactics but odds are, most non big box stores are struggling to stay open because a few major brands are making what I would consider unreasonable demands upon them and their capitol.

I know and have seen both sides of this issue but I believe giving up on your small dealer network could be a grave mistake, especially if a couple of the big box stores (that have been showing signs of severe weakness) were to cease to exist. This would be the worst case scenario for Gibson and your customers--The big dogs are out of the picture and the little dogs are no longer part of the Gibson Team-

I have given this a lot of thought because I was considering buying a small mom and pop shop a few years ago and with the way things looked in their books, it was a a catch 22 situation--I needed to add a couple of high profile brand names but couldn't draw the numbers needed to sustain dealer status at the time-It would have taken at least 5 years to pull the sort of numbers that were needed to stock the big two--Do you see the problem here?

I would have loved to have started my own family owned music shop and I know I could have been successful, but not without the major brands I wanted to sell.

I have some ideas I would be glad to throw your way via PM..

Thanks for your time--

[D Rice (Dice)]

I strongly agree here...

The "authorization" requirements should be appropriately adjusted based on population surrounding a shop. I'm not sure whether this is the case at Gibson, but I suspect that it isn't.

[T Manon (Tman5293)]

This is not completely true because I happen to know of two shops within an hours of drive of my house that sell both Fender and Gibson guitars. One of these shops is where I bought my SG and it is family owned and operated. It's been there since the early 80's.

[D Rice (Dice)]

My local shop is family owned as well - but they move a good bit of volume given our location (Western Montana). I don't think that Gibson would allow a tiny shop to move say... 5 or 10 pieces per year. There are plenty of little shops which only move those kinds of numbers, and I doubt that they would be able to be in "good standing" given such sales stats.

[D Phillips (daveinspain)]

Hmmmm, I think if Gibson had a Mom and Pop / small independent retailer person or department who's job it was to coordinate and cater to that market the combined sales would be worth the expense and effort and make a lot of people happy. Just sayin'...

[D Garden (Davie Bluesman)]

I think you can buy direct from the Gibson factory online so that's what you do if you can't get to a store, or you could buy on Ebay but you would have to get info like pics and serial number to run by Gibson.com first so they can verify the guitar is real.

[D Slygh (SlyStrat)]

The small shops HAVE TO order $100K of gear every year. That includes a bunch of Epiphone stuff. This really puts a hurt on most shops.
Also, the GC and MF exclusives. Just another way to screw the small shops.

[D Rice (Dice)]

D Garden (Davie Bluesman), on 16 July 2010 - 06:37 AM, said:

I think you can buy direct from the Gibson factory online so that's what you do if you can't get to a store, or you could buy on Ebay but you would have to get info like pics and serial number to run by Gibson.com first so they can verify the guitar is real.

You cannot order direct from Gibson on the internet.

"eBay" is not an appropriate alternative to local availability. I'm not concerned with buying a fake guitar - I've yet to see a counterfeit with anything short of a dozen glaring signs of being fake (and SN means nothing when it comes to authenticity). I don't just buy pretty guitars - I buy guitars that play well, and a neck profile that is comfortable for me, and sound great. None of this can be done over eBay.

Therefore, my comments regarding the importance of keeping the Gibson name in local shops still applies.

[D Jones (jonesy)]

My local "Mom & Pop" Music store quit carrying Gibson a few years ago because they could no longer could afford the large order quota's. They did do quite a bit of business and always had a really good selection of Gibson Electric and Acoustic guitars in stock. They still have the "F" line of guitars though. I really miss being able to go in there and buy Gibson products from them. Now I have to drive an hour one way to go to Guitar Center if I even want check out any new Gibson guitars in person. Just not the same service and knowledge from GC either.

[J Eddison (Shred Astaire)]

D Phillips (daveinspain), on 16 July 2010 - 08:15 AM, said:

Hmmmm, I think if Gibson had a Mom and Pop / small independent retailer person or department who's job it was to coordinate and cater to that market the combined sales would be worth the expense and effort and make a lot of people happy. Just sayin'...

I'll take the job Dave!

[E Kellerman (Ed Kellerman)]

I think D Phillips has the right idea - a small business specialist that would help the mom and pop stores promote Gibsons that can't meet the minimum dealer requirement (MDR). You see, guitars are meant to be played in person, to be felt, caressed, and measured for a true fit for life. When I was young, going to Manny's in Manhattan allowed me to do just that. But what could be better than dropping down to your hometown shop and strumming your Gibson life partner with friends and family you've grown up with. Small town America deserves that experience. Imagine the young man who works after school to scrape up enough dough for a great Gibson instead of a knockoff on the Internet?

Recently several small shops in Gainesville closed up while Best Buy opened up a music instrument section. Fortunately, my son's guitarist runs the shop so you have expert advice and good quality new and used equipment. Not every big box retailer will do that. Plus the management has agreed to do a small sponsorship with his band. Imagine that!

Henry, get rid of the MDR for small town America, get rid of the marketing staff that speaks in numbers and territory, stand up to the big retailers, and let a country girl with the great pipes experience the elegance of a Gibson in her hometown or nearby without having to drive into a big city or settling for something ordinary.

[S Gillespie (Kerosene)]

Well to add a little international flavour here, I'm a Canadian living in Europe. NONE of the local stores where I live carry Gibsons anymore. Gibson and guitarists are really losing out with this strange policy. I know of at least one store owner that says that he would still refuse to sell Gibsons even if they changed their policy. Which is really too bad because he's also our local Marshall dealer. And well, Gibson and Marshall that's a marriage made in heaven.

[m dailey (milod)]

Okay, here's a comment from a cynical old man.

Nobody, but nobody laments the loss of the "small town shop" and the rise of the "big box stores" much more than I.

But if you're a manufacturer, you're in a different situation. You can't ignore realities of how to sell product, keep your people working and keep paychecks from bouncing.

The problem is ensuring that, whatever your wholesale and retail pipeline, it doesn't get jammed with too much product or credit and that cash flow is maintained. You don't want to be too beholden to any single supplier or wholesale/retail pipeline, either, because the question at that point becomes almost one of who owns whom.

If you deny the big box guys, they have sufficient power to make your life miserable; if you give them too much, they hold an even greater sword over your head.

The little guy? Well, I reeeeally hate to say this, but I think I have a good parallel. I've had friends get out of the firearms business because, good gunsmiths and business people as they were, they couldn't take being called criminal profiteers because the same Winchester or Remington at WXXXXXt cost less than they could buy it wholesale. The wholesaler didn't like it either, but the additional costs of selling three or four pieces vs. three or four hundred or thousand pieces made the difference.

So... now try to find a good gunsmith or a good luthier compared to 1965. The products are just as good, but the retail and local "customer service" is in a different world, like it or not. I don't like it either, but if you're a manufacturer, do you recognize reality and walk a tightrope, or run yourself bankrupt?

It's a difficult situation where there's no way to really "win." @#$%#@$%

m

[J Hollenbeck (Jaxson)]

There were two small shops in Boise who carried Gibson guitars for years until Gibson started demanding that they place larger and larger orders while stock sat unsold on the shelves. I know these folks, they are hard working members of our community who did nothing more then share their love of Gibson with everyone. Now the only place you can find Gibson guitars is at The GC.
Martin is doing similar marketing moves, demanding that dealers buy stuff no one will buy, like composite guitars with camouflage finish or skulls and cross bones painted on them, it seems that the corporate marketing "know it all's" are forcing everyone to buy their mistakes to cover their butts...
Here's an idea, make guitars that people want, allow dealers to order what they can afford to stock their stores with, it's not like they will put GC out of business, it's called competition, it used to be very popular in this once capitalist nation. Now there is no choice other then what the purchasing agent from GC decides I should buy..

[D Kuther (kuther)]

J Hollenbeck (Jaxson), on 17 July 2010 - 02:42 AM, said:

stock sat unsold on the shelves.

But isn't this the crux of the problem?

I guess the question is why is the stock sitting on shelves. If it's because people's purchasing habits are changing and more purchases happen on-line or at big chains then that has to be considered.

OTOH, if it's because the dealer had to buy 3x more inventory than they wanted last year and 2/3 of it is still unsold then that's a different matter.

I can tell you that 20+ years ago I don't remember Gibson (or Fender for that matter) being sold in Mom & Pop shops. There was no GC in NYC at the time but the Sam Ash on Queens Blvd was the nearest place to go to check out big-name brands. Big regional shops like Focus II Guitar Centers and some bigger shops in the Tri-State area carried them but not your average neighborhood music store.

[H Kraft (Bladerock)]

I'm from Germany and over here we're faced with the same "small town dealer" problem as in the US.

My preferred dealer had GC in his portfolio evern since. Since '86, I got my first 3 GCs from him. But he had to take the Grand ol' Brand out of his stock - for minimum order requirements.

When I was looking for a SG to buy, I did what's probably todays most people choice would be: going online and look for the product at the best price. I finally bought it from a big store in Cologne (in the middle of Germany, I'm living south). So I first saw my SG when the postman rang.

To me it wasn't a problem, as I exactly knew what I wanted and there was no risk in payment, thanks to Paypal.

But:

• In this scenario there is no need to think about new models, as the chance to check 'em out at a local store is more and more declining. (at least as for the rural areas and smaller towns)
  
• Prices will decline even more, as a big store (e.g. Thoman in Germany, Europe's largest online store) can set their price by ordering extraordinary numbers
  
• Service issues comes more and more down to Gibson directly, as the dealer you purchased your guitar from is far away (think about the banned guy, refusing to send his GC via parcel service; BTW: I would strongly refuse to send my guitar via parcel service either!)
  
• you have to keep this forum alive as you loose the close contact to us customers and our demands through your local dealer network

I would have bought my SG at my preferred dealer even at a higher price, but Gibsons marketing strategy forced me out of his store into the internet. There is not too much good stuff in this story.

Bottom line: I just can agree with some of the other poster in here: think over your selling strategy and make GC available for testing, playing, smelling, feeling to (almost) everybody in a reasonable distance. Otherwise Gibson may end up selling "historical" guitars at low price in online stores and big warehouses ... <shudder>


Ciao,

Harry

PS: @Kerosene: I don't know if the liaison GC/Marshall was made in Heaven or Hell, but I do know it can't be from this world ... (playing a 2555 Limited Full Stack from '86, the grey Jubelee Series)

PPS: @Ed Kellerman: was that Manny's in 42nd street? I think I've been there in '91 when I was in NYC. I just loved that shop!

[R Simpson (Robert1950)]

D Phillips (daveinspain), on 16 July 2010 - 08:15 AM, said:

Hmmmm, I think if Gibson had a Mom and Pop / small independent retailer person or department who's job it was to coordinate and cater to that market the combined sales would be worth the expense and effort and make a lot of people happy. Just sayin'...

I think this is a good idea.

[G Kenyon (Diesel Genny)]

It's definately difficult for customers to understand why the (appropriately phrased above) "F" brand (and others) is widely available in most guitar shops in the UK; however, Gibsons are almost exclusively available through larger stores/chains and on the internet.

If the "F" brand can still support a variety of business models, why can't Gibson?

Or, is it the case that we are going to see the "F" brand being forced to move away too?


I'd like to assure Gibson, that even rank amateurs like myself (and please feel free to use "rank" in all senses of the word), do like to buy guitars based on how they feel. I bought my Gibsons because I like the feel, tone, etc., and they make me sound slightly more able to play than other guitars I've tried: I fell in love with the guitars individually and discretely, not the brand, etc., and after trying many others.

[H Juszkiewicz (HenryJ)]

I have to make a bold statement, which many of you may not agree with.

The reason that small dealers are dying is because consumers will not support them. In a free economy, it is you the fan and the customer who gets to choose by spending your hard earned money. If you spend your money at small dealers, I can guarantee Gibson and everyone else in the industry will be there. The fact is, as a group, you do not spend your money there.

There is not a single consumer who does not look at Thoman's catalog offerings in Europe. His prices are incredibly aggressive, the service is exceptional and he has a 500,000 square foot distribution center that ships product to most consumers within 24 hours. He has millions invested in inventory.

He is an aggressive and competent business man who is able to make a profit even though his prices are very low (very low profit margins). No small shop in Europe can stay in business at his very competitive prices, and so where do consumers buy?

Since I have been in this industry, I have found it to be the most price oriented business in the world. Every guitar player seeks out the lowest priced product, and then goes to the local shop and says, "Sell me your guitar at this price or I will walk". These small shop owners gets dozens of calls every day from people shopping price. If they put their inventory online, the situation gets even worse as guitar players will shop the world and hammer the poor small business person. Come on guys, who is going to tell me they know a player that paid more of a guitar because of a relationship. Yes it happens, but not enough to support a small shop. People do not as a rule pay more regardless. I don't think they should have too. I think the fan is always right, and we are there to service our valuable fan. And the best way to get a lower price on a product is to buy from an aggressive merchant that does high volume and probably has only so-so service.

Look at other industries. Look at consumer electronics. How many small stores are left. Where do you buy a big screen TV: Best Buy, Dixon's, Amazon or Joe's TV Shop? Why is Walmart the largest retailer in the world, because they charge higher prices, and have a more limited selection?

Brands and companies react to what consumers want. That is the only way we can succeed. My sin is that I have studied other industries and have gone to where consumers are going before other brands and companies in this industry. I have used strategies and tactics that allowed brands and companies to thrive, and ruined companies that did not adopt them. The sin is to give to consumers what they really want based on their buying behavior.

People bring up stores like Centre City Music, and Gruhn's as small merchants. They may have smaller stores, but they are some of the largest volume dealers in the country and they are extremely aggressive in pricing as is the great store in Cologne which is building a new distribution warehouse with thousands of square feet.

We do our share to support those retailers that have a good customer base. We have Business Development Managers that help them with annual business plans, District Product Specialists that travel to the store and help with training and merchandising, Relationship managers that provide direct line account support, and an extensive 24 hour computerized systems allowing account management. We give smaller dealers significantly better credit terms than large dealer because the smaller guys have a harder time with financing. The average store turns a guitar 4 times a year (Thomann probably 20 times a year) and we extend 90 day terms meaning we fully finance the independent store site. This cost $$$$ money. We cannot support a single store visit that can easily run $1000 when the store sells 10 of our instruments a year, let alone the rich support each of our retailers get.

While you may complain about the demise of small local retailers, it is not the brands and companies that are killing them. It is the price driven consumer. It has happened in every industry, and it is now happening in ours. I think, the consumer and fan are always right.

[D van Eerde (dvane43)]

I've actually had better experiences at big stores like Long and McQuade over some of the small stores in my area. Could be just my area, but I find the customer service to be much better.