[M Berka (EmBee)]

What is so special about "Made in USA"?

Does the country of origin really matter to the average customer anymore, these days? Other than for pure patriotic feelings amongst US-citizens?

I would be more than willing to buy a, say, chinese or korean Gibson, if it had the "correct" specs and appointments.

Epiphone does a fantastic job, but their products are specifically aimed at a lower price point.

I don't think "overseas" builders are less qualified or motivated. If they were allowed to build the best quality they could, there might be some interesting possibilities there...

[M Weaver (Awfers)]

For me, not an American, it's a question of perception of quality and probably about culture as well. I know the US is capable of making some superior quality items, and usually do, when they want, can or are allowed to.

Where-as in my experiences in dealing with China (and I have had a bit) is that, at least in business, they are about money first, quality is a secondary priority (lead/toxic paints on toys for babies ring any bells?). On the other hand, I also know they are capable of producing incredible products, if the person ordering them has the budget and isn't of the "keep it cheap" mentality.

I've also seen the Gibson video with the guy "dancing" as he polishes a LP body, happy at his work it seems. I don't get the impression that factories in China have the same level of enthusiasm or pride in one's work?

Or am I wrong?



At any rate, I like my US made Gibsons, thank you very much. It's a tradition.

[D Goulding (DaveG)]

I think Chinese guitars are usually cr*p, because they are relatively new to making guitars; Korean guitars used to be poor but keep getting better and better - the later korean Epiphones and other brands are great guitars for the cash.

Japanese guitars are always superb; I've got a number of Jap ESPs and Jacksons, and they are as good or better than any USA guitar I've ever played.

Basically I think it comes down to trying the guitar before you buy, although I think a lot of US guys bring patriotism into the equation.

[J GGoerge (joey257)]

Yes! I am an average customer, and find I avoid the Chinese guitars at all costs. I stared and stared at Epiphones many times while my son took lessons way back when, and just couldn't do it.

Besides being 'cheaper materials, cheaper components and cheaper methods', that whole 'Made in China' is just not for me, and buying one is NOT necessary, not when better gear is made right here (or in Japan like Gretsch).

[K Bolas (lespaul1963)]

It would be kind of like Major League Baseball setting up shop in Singapore. BTW, Henry's second favorite company, Harley Davidson is thinking about bailing on Milwaukee after 105 years. I grew up there. I cannot imagine anything sadder, except Gibson moving abroad (which I understand Henry has said isn't going to happen on his watch). So, yeah country of origin does matter in some cases.

[P aruwi (PeteR)]

D Goulding (DaveG), on 05 August 2010 - 11:06 AM, said:

I think Chinese guitars are usually cr*p, because they are relatively new to making guitars; Korean guitars used to be poor but keep getting better and better - the later korean Epiphones and other brands are great guitars for the cash.

Japanese guitars are always superb; I've got a number of Jap ESPs and Jacksons, and they are as good or better than any USA guitar I've ever played.

Basically I think it comes down to trying the guitar before you buy, although I think a lot of US guys bring patriotism into the equation.

As a non-American just some thoughts........

Japanese guitars are well known for their good quality, and the price is near or over the US made guitars, (at least over here)

how long ago did they start to build guitars ? did Japanese made guitars have that good reputation everytime ?

how long ago are guitars made in Korea ?
how long ago are guitars made in China ?

Why should it take more than some years to get it well done?

Peter

[D Garden (Davie Bluesman)]

There is a distinct difference between playing a 'quality' guitar and playing a 'copy' of that quality guitar, even if the copy has been made under licence i.e. Epiphone and Squire for that matter. I have Gibsons, Fenders, Epiphones and Squires and I can categorically say that the Epi's and the Squire's look the business but don't sound the business. I have replaced the pick ups and pots on the Epi's with Gibson gear and similarly with Fender gear on the Squires. For example I have a Squire Telecaster which sounded like a cheap guitar, I put Texas Special pick ups in it with the correct resistance pots and correct capacitance tone caps and I can tell you it 'sings'. I have an Epi 335 Dot and I replaced the pick ups with Les Paul Custom pick ups and again the correct control gear and the sound/tone difference is night and day. However, I would also have to say that in my own personal opinion based on what I own, the USA made guitars 'feel' better, if you know what I mean and another relavent point (to address the first post's question)is that USA made guitars hold their resale price whereas the others don't. Finally I would have to say (my own opinion again) that anyone who says they prefer a 'non American' Gibson rather than an American model is not totally clued up with what he is looking for.

[P aruwi (PeteR)]

D Garden (Davie Bluesman), on 05 August 2010 - 11:38 PM, said:

There is a distinct difference between playing a 'quality' guitar and playing a 'copy' of that quality guitar, even if the copy has been made under licence i.e. Epiphone and Squire for that matter. I have Gibsons, Fenders, Epiphones and Squires and I can categorically say that the Epi's and the Squire's look the business but don't sound the business. I have replaced the pick ups and pots on the Epi's with Gibson gear and similarly with Fender gear on the Squires. For example I have a Squire Telecaster which sounded like a cheap guitar, I put Texas Special pick ups in it with the correct resistance pots and correct capacitance tone caps and I can tell you it 'sings'. I have an Epi 335 Dot and I replaced the pick ups with Les Paul Custom pick ups and again the correct control gear and the sound/tone difference is night and day. However, I would also have to say that in my own personal opinion based on what I own, the USA made guitars 'feel' better, if you know what I mean and another relavent point (to address the first post's question)is that USA made guitars hold their resale price whereas the others don't. Finally I would have to say (my own opinion again) that anyone who says they prefer a 'non American' Gibson rather than an American model is not totally clued up with what he is looking for.

What if the parts you spoke of would be used in that foreign factorys ?

[D Garden (Davie Bluesman)]

P aruwi (PeteR), on 05 August 2010 - 04:56 PM, said:

What if the parts you spoke of would be used in that foreign factorys ?

It would make the guitars sound much better because they are better quality pick ups, but they are 'not' used in the factories you talk about to my knowledge, inferior units are used. USA Gibson and Fender pick ups are made to a higher standard than Epiphone and Squire pick ups, that's why they sound better. I don't know how similar the materials specifications are between USA and non USA guitars, for example, I suspect that a Korean Epiphone Dot may not be made from the same wood and it's American couterpart. I suspect the same goes on with Fenders made outside USA. I don't think it's an economics solution for Gibson or Fender to manufacture abroad otherwise it would work like a franchise where the materials used would have to be 100% the same to retain the brand integrity. A bit like MacDonalds, if you take on a MacDonalds franchise you have to buy the food from MacDonalds, it's all the same, that's why it all tastes the same. If Gibson or Fender made ALL the component parts in USA then shipped them around the world to be assembled, theoretically you'd have they same guitar but quality control would have to be spot on and at the end of the day I still think savvy guitarists would want a USA model first. I certainly would.

[p carlino (jimihendrix)]

I'm afraid that I one of my pet peeves is Chinese products...I avoid them whenever possible for moral reasons...

The Chinese were responsible for putting lead paint in childrens toys and they sold pet food in North America that killed many pets...they also killed many people in South America by substituting glycerin...a harmless food additive...with glycol...or anti-freeze...in cough medicine...just to save a few pennies in manufacturing costs...they knowingly kill innocent people around the world...intentionally...

Their counterfeit manufactured goods like Gucci bags and Rolex watches look as intended...but the quality is not there and the items fall apart...ask yourself this...would you buy safety-related items such as parachutes and car brakes made in China...???...they certainly couldn't care less if these products fail...and people die as a result...

Make mine North American built where manufacturing laws protect our well being...

[A Jordan (vortexx)]

P aruwi (PeteR), on 05 August 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:

As a non-American just some thoughts........

Japanese guitars are well known for their good quality, and the price is near or over the US made guitars, (at least over here)

how long ago did they start to build guitars ? did Japanese made guitars have that good reputation everytime ?

how long ago are guitars made in Korea ?
how long ago are guitars made in China ?

Why should it take more than some years to get it well done?

Peter

Japan took a while as well to get as good as they are now. They started electric production with cheap late 60's early 70's guitars that were sold all around the world under different names. Most of those were pretty bad but OK for beginner guitars. Some people really love them though for their unusual looks and sounds.

[P aruwi (PeteR)]

A Jordan (vortexx), on 07 August 2010 - 05:27 AM, said:

Japan took a while as well to get as good as they are now. They started electric production with cheap late 60's early 70's guitars that were sold all around the world under different names. Most of those were pretty bad but OK for beginner guitars. Some people really love them though for their unusual looks and sounds.

Don't you think they learn much faster this days than 40 years ago?

Even it's their own factories and not any other .

Peter

[m dailey (milod)]

The Japanese have a tradition of fine craftsmanship and cabinetmaking. Ditto the Koreans and - like it or not - the Chinese.

The Japanese got a head start on the rest of the "orient" with the Meiji "restoration." The Battle of Tsushima proved that if nothing else, within a very short time the old Japan had changed radically. Regardless of politics leading up to WWII and beyond, Japan was motivated, and remains motivated, to be a world power one way or another.

Korea got into the game much later thanks to having been functionally a colony of Japan - with functional U.S. abrogation of a treaty with the Koreans which everyone seems conveniently to have forgotten. Actually the Koreans didn't forget, but that's another story. South Korea in the aftermath of the Korean War determined they were not going to be a third world country and that national will has shown and shone regardless of very difficult politics. After an economic revolution about the time of the '88 Olympics, they're truly a major world force.

China always has considered itself the central kingdom of the world, originator of technology and rightfully - under a "mandate of heaven" - to be the world leader of all things important.

The U.S. meanwhile seems to have, as did the Brits before them, in general dropped the ball in terms of national will to distinguish itself. Gibson and a few other guitar-making companies and a few other "high end" manufacturers are the exception - assuming they can survive a culture that seems as we've seen on this board an inclination to consider a working corporation as something less than desired for the "good of the people."

When the U.S. wishes again to be "the" world leader in manufacturing, it probably could be so. But that's not likely soon under current cultural trends. Until then... and if... it will be interesting to see what might come of national will. I guess I won't believe in it until television manufacturing becomes again one of many U.S. "specialties."

Back to the question of guitar - Japan got into "western" musical instruments earlier than China and Korea. Korea second and China afterward. But the Koreans aren't willing to work for third world wages any more and the Chinese need to maintain functioning factories for a number of reasons keeps them for the next decade or two as a place of relatively stable manufacturing and export of handwork, such as guitars.

On a purely political note in ways, I'm not sure it's "bad" that the Chinese are getting into guitars. I've said many times before that "western civilization" can best work with other cultures where there's a bunch of guitar playing. The reasons behind that are many, but if nothing else it reflects a degree of cultural commonality, admitted or otherwise.

m

[M Ryan (Malikon)]

That was a great post M Dailey.

[D Meer (shambolic)]

China has a very ancient tradition of cabinet making and a long tradition of violin making and to cite instances where one company has used materials or substances it shouldn't is not really a valid argument. I think we can find in the history of most countries instances where companies have been immoral in their dealings leading to sickness and death. Also to bring up the current quality of epiphones or squires is wrong because they are given the spec by american companies to build cheap. If nationalism is your reason for wanting Gibson solely in America then say it!

Having said that Chinas human rights record is appalling

[P F. (deepblue)]

My wife is Asian and she puts thought, care and love into everything she does....and she could probably
outwork us all. So when Asian work ethics are brought up I move on to the next topic.
There are just as many lazy non-caring workers here in North America as anywhere in the world.

[m dailey (milod)]

I just interviewed a Russian musician whose complaint about the Soviet era was that they made a big deal about unemployment in the US which didn't exist in the childhood and younger adulthood of this artist - but some of those employed weren't worth the jobs.

BTW, I've always wondered about the quality of many sorts of former Soviet bloc nations' musical instruments because heaven knows many musicians from that region of the world are certainly highly talented, skilled and, at least in the classical world, well trained.

I think the world is in an incredible time of economic transition and in ways, it's not unlike weathering a storm for a cupla generations to see how it shakes out.

m

[K Bolas (lespaul1963)]

The US used to be the world leader in a great many things. There are a few things that, IMOHO, we still are. Gibson is a reflection of that which I speak. So is Fender, Sturm Ruger, Ford (as of very recent) and a handful of other American companies that produce various and sundry consumer goods. Whether they be guitars or guns or something else, there is generally a perception of certain intrinsic qualities, namely quality materials, workmanship and customer service that justify the higher price that I am willing to pay. I previously used the word perception, because some of the qualities that I mentioned are slipping.

For me, when the intrinsic qualities are more or less the same between the American manufactured product and the foreign manufactured, I will go for the best value, e.g., we used to be an all Dodge household. We are now buying Japanese vehicles. Did the intrinsics slip for the American auto manufacturer? Did the Japanese manufacturer get better with the intrinsics? Yes to both. Gibson needs to maintain the traditional "American Standard" for the intrinsics if I am to continue purchasing their product. If the Chinese or whomever can match or surpass Gibson, then I suspect Gibson will go the way of the dodo. I certainly hope to never see that happen.

[R Nahum (Robin Nahum)]

M Berka (EmBee), on 05 August 2010 - 01:59 AM, said:

What is so special about "Made in USA"?

Does the country of origin really matter to the average customer anymore, these days? Other than for pure patriotic feelings amongst US-citizens?

I would be more than willing to buy a, say, chinese or korean Gibson, if it had the "correct" specs and appointments.

Epiphone does a fantastic job, but their products are specifically aimed at a lower price point.

I don't think "overseas" builders are less qualified or motivated. If they were allowed to build the best quality they could, there might be some interesting possibilities there...

I think "Made in USA" can be thought of as a kind of brand.

It suggests an assurance of quality - although this may not always be valid if the complaints by some about certain contemporary Gibson and Fender guitars are anything to go by. And there is no shortage of high quality product from elsewhere in the world nowadays - especially Japan - and I am sure that Korea and China are not far behind.

For many, especially overseas, I imagine that the monicker "Made in USA" is a status/conspicuous consumption thing like Italian sports cars and French wines. I have to admit that I am in this camp - although I have loosened up sufficiently that I play a homebrew Telecaster without a big "F" on the headstock. But this conspicuous consumption/brand consciousness stuff is not for everybody in every circumstance - especially those who are perfectly happy with, "a guitar that works" that is within their budget. This is how I feel about cars. I drive a 2001 Mazda 323.

RN

[m dailey (milod)]

Robin...

A quick question for an antipodean...

I have a personal theory that today's plastic, robot-manufactured perfect clones in so many consumer products has both given a largely hand-crafted product a greater panache (good), but also increased consumer expectations for a robot-level of "perfection" impossible with a hand-crafted musical instrument.

I keep thinking that it's unlikely one would have found fewer "imperfections" in a brand new Gibson in 1930 than today - but that the expectation of "perfection" and our communication of those expectations is far different from 1930.

???

m