[H Juszkiewicz (HenryJ)]

I have just authorized many new members. A gentlemen who refused to leave his last name, UncleE, within minutes of being made a member left 7 different long posts on a our terrible lack of product quality, and some pretty inflammatory comments.

He claims he bought a Custom Shop product with numerous problems, but was unwilling to send it to us fix because of the high cost of freight. He then went on to say what great quality PRS and several and brands he apparently does not own from his registration information.

I have banned him from our group, but I would love the communities opinion. Should I lighten up? Is the
is appropriate? What do you think is appropriate in a forum seeking open and honest dialogue. All comments and opinions welcome.

[x x (KernelofWisdom)]

Well I counter ranted him b/c I thought he was ranting too much. When he said at the bottom of the first long post that his only recourse was to rant everywhere on the internet he could, I took that to be that he was going to post out of emotion rather than fact.

It seems to me that if he wants to point out to you as a customer that at the final point of contact he got a product that wasn't up to par with what Gibson expects of itself and customers fairly expect, that's fair game. If the goal is just to rage, then that's not the point of this forum and a ban perhaps was the right way to go, IMO.

I thought he was cooling down to a more reasonable standing as he posted.

Perhaps, and I haven't looked to see if there is one, there should be a sticky or a statement in the registration, that criticism, tough questions (you haven't shied away from those), and comparison to other brands is accepted, but rants and general argumentative put-downs of Gibson will not be.

You've hit some sensitive issues straight on. I'm impressed by that.

Well anyway, Flick would be a better person to get an opinion from than me, as he's had a great deal of experience striking the balance on what is and isn't productive toward good discussion.

[S Englund (ksdaddy)]

Welcome to the weird world of moderation. It's never black and white as to what should be left and what should be nuked, is it?

[R Iavarone (RichCI)]

I didn't get a chance to read the message but I would refer to the board rules and terms of service and see if he broke them.

One thing you need to realize is that a forum like this - especially one with the company CEO watching it - is going to have negative posts, usually along the lines of customer complaints. If you want to build a message board community, you have to take the lumps along with the good stuff otherwise people will stop coming here or call it a "fanboy" forum. Ideally, you want constructive criticism but it's not always going to be that way; sometimes somebody is going to be good and steamed up and needs to vent. I know you don't want to have negative messages about the company posted here where potential customers and business partners can read them, but that's part of the deal as people communicate differently (for better or worse).

Now, if he is using profanity or personally attacking you or anyone else on the board, that's another story. It's one thing to write "I'm angry with Henry! He wants me to pay for shipping my guitar to fix defects and I think that's wrong!" but it's another to write "Henry is a jerk! He wants me to pay...!"

I think what you need to do - and soon - is post rules for the forum. Right now, there aren't any that I'm aware of so it's difficult to say with any absolution what you should have done with that guy. The rules over in the older forums are spelled out very well so you should consider using them either verbatim or as a guide to rules here. I recommend making the rules on both forums identical so people don't become confused. One thing you definitely want is consistency, if you don't have that, people start thinking that moderation is unfair and favoritism is being shown.

[m dailey (milod)]

I'd second comments by B Cordland (KernelofWisdom)

It's more a matter of civility than anything else. Also I don't particularly trust folks who refuse to offer a full name to a forum with the corporate access this offers. On a "regular" Gibson forum? Perhaps, but privileges should come with responsiblity.

It's almost inevitable that somebody will be unhappy with product or service; folks will stop rational thought at different points of frustration. But I question, then, promoting another brand that probably has somebody somewhere just as frustrated.

m

[J Eddison (Shred Astaire)]

I think theres a line somewhere...its ok to provide feedback but a rant like that is out of order...

Gibson as a company should be open to listening to their customers (and with this forum, it seems they are), but as someone who has spent much time in a Customer Service environment, I wouldn't let anyone talk to my people like that. You have to draw the line somewhere...and if the complaint makes you uncomfortable, you have the right to end the conversation.

That's my view anyway!

[R Moore (Rexm)]

Henry The one thing that I have noticed on the Gibson site is that some people have nothing to do but complain. Some do it for attenion and to stand out from the crowd. some people see this as a way to vent to whom ever will take time to listen. I would suggest that the old rule of thumb apply. If it is not constuctive it's not helping solve a thing. Ayone that has a problem with their instrument should contact their dealer for more help. I think you are fine and you took the right direction with this fellow. You are decent enough to open this forum up for us all to communicate better and I sure hope that a few bitter people don't cause you to become discoureged with it.

[H Juszkiewicz (HenryJ)]

Great comments.

I wrote UncleE an email telling him to why he was removed and if I misunderstood his intentions or he wanted to be more constructive, we would give him access again.

I really want community input to make sure we have a healthy and honest dialogue. This should certainly allow for criticism and strong opinions, but it should also be respectful of the community and be aimed at a positive outcome.

Thanks for contributing!!!

[H Kraft (Bladerock)]

I agree with R Iavarone very much. I've been a forum supervisor and customer service manager in the old days of CompuServe, when it was more than just a brand. Though it was the German part of CS, we tried to go along with what we called "the American support level", which meant to us that the customer is always right and any complaint must be reasonable.

Then, the online services weren't free, except for the service forums. There were no rules besides the general netiquette and customers were free to write whatever they regarded to be appropriate. That worked for about 95% of the user.

But the remaining 5% caused such a high workload with inappropriate and spamming messages, that the forum was close to be unmanagable. When I took over responsibility for the forum, I decided to come up with forum rules, months after the forum was established. It was a mess! All of a sudden, users felt led by the nose, even the ones who's approach wasn't bad at all.

So I just can join in Iavarone's suggest to establish forum rules asap, as it's way more difficult to do it lateron.

Quote

A gentlemen who refused to leave his last name

Well, maybe it's a prejudice, but it may be questionable that a person showing a lack of decency by not telling it's real name - especially when it's a part of the terms of agreement - is eligible to be called "gentleman" and it's even more doubtful that such a person ever tends to behave as a gentleman - at least as far as my experience goes.

I'm very happy with the introduction of this forum and it's oppurtinity to talk to the man in charge. IMHO it shows a big bunch of customer relation - or big desperation.

Anyway, I'ld love to see that the feedback given in this forum finds it's way into the company and brings back the brand I always thought of when hearing the big name Gibson: inventor of some of the finest guitars ever made. But for that, we need constructive and sincere feedback. Otherwise it's very unlikely that it will be heard. To me, it's better to ban a couple of "gentleman" that are unable to meet this expectations rather than wasting an oppurtinity like this dialogue.


Cheers,

Harry

PS: I still have the cover of the wrapping my LP Limited came in, at the hallway to my studio, stating "Only a Gibson is good enough" - but I'm afraid that Gibson has to come back to the point where it earns the name "Gibson"

[R Braun (RLB61)]

For what it's worth, I read that thread. While I believe that the OP had what he believed to be a legitimate complaint, his method of articulation was entirely inappropriate. Had I been in his position, I would have been as respectful as possible knowing that I might have some direct access to the company CEO who might be able to rectify the problem. Even though his tone calmed down as the thread progressed, he was most disrespectful to another poster and, as I recall, there was some name calling. Such conduct cannot be condoned or tolerated. I'm not for banning folks from on-line forums before they are given a warning. My suggestion is to allow him back, provided that he comports his conduct in a dignified, respectful and constructive manner. If he fails or refuses to do so, then I think a ban is warranted. It's simply a little bit of private, Due Process in the interests of community and as a matter of good faith and fairness.

[J Kimble (FLICKOFLASH)]

Welcome to my world. No worries Henry as we are in the setting up house phase.Generally I use a 3 strikes your out policy as I hate for anyone to be banned for life. I personally have been there myself. Sometimes you get posters who we call trolls who set out to do post to stir the pot.You need to remember everyone has a bad day & they may fly off the handle sometimes they may also be under the influence as well.This is where the mods & members play the cat & mouse with some members to disfuse the problem ,send a warning or suspend or ban if it comes to it.Generally we kiss & make up beside too much kissing up can lead to a very boring forum. So sometimes the villians make the place very hopping & on the edge

[K Willits (K P)]

If someone can not adhere to the rules and stipulations of the forum, then they must be told to do so. If they do not comply, then a "time out" is called for. Two "time outs" for the same thing should result in banning, at least temporarily.

[D Rice (Dice)]

Henry: You and your team need to "rule" this place with a heavy hand. Internet forums can get out of control very quickly.

Luckily, you have brought in one of, if not THE BEST, moderators in the realm of guitar discussion boards - Flick. It will be nice for you to be able to sit back and absorb our input and respond accordingly, while letting Flick take care of the riffraff.

This should not be a place for people to "troll" and flame Gibson. This should be a place for customers to raise legitimate concerns with yourself. And, they should do so with respect, and realize that you do not, by any stretch of the imagination, have to open yourself up such as you have with this forum. It is a service to us, the customers, and lets us know that you legitimately care about our opinions.

I think that you dealt with that guy appropriately. I like the reduced "anonymity" of this forum. And, you can place your fullest confidence in Flick - he is as "pro" as it gets when it comes to forum administration and moderation. In the 3 years I've been posting on his boards, I have yet to see him act unprofessionally - or fail to deal with an important issue promptly.

[P Petiniot (Blues4U)]

D Rice (Dice), on 16 July 2010 - 08:21 PM, said:

Henry: You and your team need to "rule" this place with a heavy hand. Internet forums can get out of control very quickly.

Luckily, you have brought in one of, if not THE BEST, moderators in the realm of guitar discussion boards - Flick. It will be nice for you to be able to sit back and absorb our input and respond accordingly, while letting Flick take care of the riffraff.

This should not be a place for people to "troll" and flame Gibson. This should be a place for customers to raise legitimate concerns with yourself. And, they should do so with respect, and realize that you do not, by any stretch of the imagination, have to open yourself up such as you have with this forum. It is a service to us, the customers, and lets us know that you legitimately care about our opinions.

I think that you dealt with that guy appropriately. I like the reduced "anonymity" of this forum. And, you can place your fullest confidence in Flick - he is as "pro" as it gets when it comes to forum administration and moderation. In the 3 years I've been posting on his boards, I have yet to see him act unprofessionally - or fail to deal with an important issue promptly.

Henry,

I holeheartedly agree with Dice---Although I may at times raise legitimate concerns about Gibson and their products, I realize this is YOUR house and I also realize I am a guest-

You dealt with the person in question appropriately-

[G Justus (kommando84)]

Henry,

The only reason I view this forum as being more legitimate than your run-of-the-mill online forum is the expectation of being required to give your full name and background information and then being vetted before being allowed to post. Civility is that reasonable space between "flame war" and "fanboy" that some people find hard to inhabit, and I hope by putting reasonable restrictions on who can join and remain in membership (based on conduct), this forum will provide the kind of healthy dialogue that can allow all of us who have opinions on the Gibson brand (for better or worse) to express them to the CEO of the company.

If you allow people to hijack the forums for an external agenda or to redress grievances that are better directed to customer service folks at Gibson or their local dealer, "Ask Henry" will go the way of countless other echo chamber forums that I've been into and out of on the web.

Cheers to taking the risk of being accessible to the musical public, and a long, productive life to this forum. My esteem of Gibson is already higher just knowing that a place like this exists on the web.

[J Tate (John Tate)]

Henry;
Somehow I don't think you established this forum simply for the sole purpose of receiving a steady stream of rosey comments regarding the Gibson products. What could possibly be learned and/or gained by having everyone blow smoke up your ass ? I say this with a touch of humor, but it's true. There is a right way and a wrong way to present comments ... good, bad or otherwise. If "UncleE" or anyone else for that matter, can't comprehend that simple business ethos, then he/she shouldn't be on here and I support their removal.

[p carlino (jimihendrix)]

Welcome to the world if internet forums...

The nature of the forums mirror every "real world" community...you get you're normal civilized people...and you get a few mixed nuts...ha ha ha...

Let the experienced moderators deal with the flakes...legitimate members will also speak up if someone repeatedly steps out of line...the internet's anonimity gives punks a false sense of bravado and feeling of "power" to say outrageous things that they'd never dare say to another person's face...

"uncleE"...or whatever his name is...could very well endlessly make up new false profiles...for eternity...let's just hope they don't return....for the benefit of us who really want to be here...

Lastly...please don't take things personally...most of us are here because we love Gibson and want you to succeed...

[D Erskine (Erskine)]

This was one of the first threads I read and was amazed at how others reacted as well. We all need to be as diplomatic as possible when this happens. Don't counter attack with "It sounds like it happened to the right guy". This only makes things worse. Just take a breath and let the Moderator do there thing. Were all here because we love guitars, including Gibsons and other brands.

[A Jordan (vortexx)]

The problem is the taint that people like uncleE can cause to a message board if left uncontrolled is to cause the other members to avoid this message board unless you/we want to be bombarded with constant non-constructive negativity. The 3 strikes rule is probably the best but in his case it's like he already used up his 3 strikes by all his rants.

[I Stoddard (Low-B 5-String)]

p carlino (jimihendrix), on 17 July 2010 - 02:13 PM, said:

Welcome to the world if internet forums...
...snip...
Lastly...please don't take things personally...most of us are here because we love Gibson and want you to succeed...

Seconded.