[S Berrian (The_Sentry)]

Hey folks....

I'll admit I've been watching this very carefully since the story broke about the raid. I've watched the vids, read the articles, showed support where I can. To be honest? The whole method in which the raids came about, and questioning the validity of the Constitution ingeneral after what happened...is not why I'm writing this.

As it is then, as it is now...I come here to talk guitars. This is no exception.

First...I will say that yes, I have other guitars besides Gibsons. One of them is an acoustic. It's a fairly new Taylor 410CE with the Expression system. It has a sitka spruce top, indian rosewood back and sides, and an ebony fingerboard and bridge. Let's face it, it's loaded with a whole bunch of woods which consistuted the justification for the raid.

In my opinion, and looking at the big picture: I don't think Gibson is the end of it. I sincerely apologize that you were the first hit, but my concern NOW is that this is just the beginning of an all-out assault on what might be one of the last great cottage industries of manufacturing in the United States: Musical Instruments, and specifically whether or not American citizens will have any right to build said instruments in the not-so-distant future.

In my estimation, because Gibson (who, along with Fender) is one of the most recognizable names in guitars in the world has been singled out, the immediate, knee jerk reaction is a demand for ALL US manufacturers, wholesellers, and distributors to be investigated since charges and accusations of cronyism have arisen since this raid. (I don't see how they couldn't...but anyway). My concern is that the DOJ, and because the gov't has been so tight lipped about the Lacey Act, will be compelled to investigate every American manufacturer that is doing business, and using said woods. I seriously doubt they are doing anything different than Gibson is, and are probably buying from the same firms, and it's not beyond the scope of imaginations that the customs agents that inspected Gibson's woods from India...also inspect stuff for Taylor, Martin, or any other brand that is using this wood.

In my estimations it's going to snowball until it gets to all of the manufacturers, the wholesalers (I'm thinking of outlets such as AllParts and Stewart MacDonald) all the way to private luthiers. And, if this isn't enough...will they start raiding chain outlets...demanding receipts, and confiscating people's property? When does this end?

The sad reality of the Lacey Act...in one aspect it is very similar to the Patriot Act...large, vague wording, wide open for interpretation.

I am of the impression that as far as guitars, and for that matter, musical instruments go, this is the beginning of the end of US manufacturing for musical instruments. But, if it is of any consolation, it won't go quietly....roughly 50% of all US households have musical instruments. The lions share are guitars. I'm sure people will put up with a lot, but will the gov't resort to taking people's musical instruments away?

Will people let this go quietly? I certainly hope not. In truth the Lacey Act can effectively apply to just about any item made of wood...including your house. But guitars are enough for now.

Either way...it seems that the process has begun. I'm saying a lot of prayers for some folks I know who are reliant upon this industry for their general welfare. And, it seems that if the American manufacturers as a whole are smart enough to see the big challenge, and the big picture, I hope that they can set aside their differences, see the REAL threat that is looming for the United States and the American people as a whole, and work together to stop any more raids, and repeal an act which is blatantly unconsitutional. This is more than just an attempt to bring one company to its knees with no due course..and notice is served: If it can happen to Gibson, it can happen to anyone.

Thanks for reading.

[S Sanchez (trekhead)]

I'm with ya' Unfortunately, some folks don't believe that this has anything to do with them nor that it will affect them in any way. I figure that even if that's the case, even if there is no chance that any of my guitars could possibly be affected by all of this stuff; the fact remains that an American company with American workers is suffering because of the way DOJ is interpreting the Lacey Act. They are being very heavy handed and at least from where I stand, the whole notion of innocent until proven guilty had been tossed aside for reasons I don't understand. I'm not saying that the idea behind the Lacey Act is bad, or that we should just look the other way while laws are being broken, but there needs to be some sanity while all of this is figured out. I hope cooler heads will prevail and this situation is ironed out in a rational manner while avoiding (additionl) damage to Gibson.

[S Berrian (The_Sentry)]

S Sanchez (trekhead), on 31 August 2011 - 12:20 PM, said:

I'm with ya' Unfortunately, some folks don't believe that this has anything to do with them nor that it will affect them in any way. I figure that even if that's the case, even if there is no chance that any of my guitars could possibly be affected by all of this stuff; the fact remains that an American company with American workers is suffering because of the way DOJ is interpreting the Lacey Act. They are being very heavy handed and at least from where I stand, the whole notion of innocent until proven guilty had been tossed aside for reasons I don't understand. I'm not saying that the idea behind the Lacey Act is bad, or that we should just look the other way while laws are being broken, but there needs to be some sanity while all of this is figured out. I hope cooler heads will prevail and this situation is ironed out in a rational manner while avoiding (additionl) damage to Gibson.

I am in agreement with this. The basic flaw of the Lacey Act is that it demands that our DOJ interprets the laws of other nations...and enforces them. In the case of both raids complaints were not lodged against Gibson. The implications of this are that our government is acting as if it knows the laws of other nations better than those nations do.

I can acknowledge that we need to protect our resources. Be that as it may, the Lacey Act is especially dangerous in that it specifically targets guitars made from the time of its passage to the present day. And it also leaves a very unclear perception of what woods are legal, and what are not for people shipping guitars through customs.

I've read that any sort of wood from Madagascar has been declared outright illegal in the act, although in CITES woods from Madagascar are still allowable. I also did not see any references towards Indian woods being declared illegal, although the DOJ may take exception and start siezing any Gibson guitar that enters through customs made from 2008 to the last shipment out of any of the factories in Nashville, Memphis, or Montana.

After doing further searching, it wasn't lost of me that a whole laundry list of guitar makers are still selling guitars through major outlets that feature Madagascar woods including Martin, Taylor, Larrivee, and a host of others. Many violin components made out of Madagascar ebony are for sale. I am only a consumer, yet I was able to find this information readily enough. Why exactly was Gibson singled out? I have a strong suspicion that any Historic model made in 2008, and any Gibson USA model made from May of 2008 to present will be singled out by customs agents. And it will be to the tune of a 100 thousand dollar fine and a year in jail...over a misdemeanor.

This is excessive to say in the least.

I think a rational course of action (especially in light of how the government looks to be an agent that is DESTROYING and not CREATING jobs in the United States) is to repeal the Lacey Act, and stick with one set of laws that works for the entire international community: CITES. CITES is more than enough for proper regulation and protection of endangered woods and species. I do not understand why there is now a second set of laws which seeks to do little but offer severe punishment while enforcing laws I doubt our Justice Deparment understands as well as the nations who have created their own laws to live under. If our government feels that CITES is not enough, and they are seeking to protect the resources of the international community, it only makes sense to work with the international community towards protecting these resources.

I am so far not impressed with the Lacey Act in which it was written, or how it has been executed thus far. I am of the impression that far too often, our lawmakers in Washington make assumptions that they know what is best for everyone else not only living in the United States, but the world at large. I am of the belief that this sort of mindset is what led to the creation of the Lacey Act in the first place.

CITES is enough. I hope there are concerted efforts to repeal the Lacey Act.

[K Urkosky (KenG)]

Unfortunately, this is another example of what happens when people aren't vigilant enough to begin with. Special interest groups are usually more radical and intolerant, and while they usually represent a small percentage of the general population, their high profile attitudes often gain them more attention than they deserve. Before you know it laws are passed based on this small group of malcontents' limited view of the issues and everyone else is left to pick up the pieces.
Personally, I though an armed raid of a legal company, that operates openly was overkill. It's not like the agents should've been fearing for their personal safety. However, the leasson here is complacency by US citizens is the real culprit.

[S Berrian (The_Sentry)]

I can't disagree with that. However, as far as the Lacey Act goes..there really wasn't much press about it, in fact it was an addendum snuck into the 2008 Farm Bill. I seriously doubt our er, um, "representatives" (I use the term loosely) in Congress even bothered to glance at the 600 page addendum before voting in favor of it.

Either way, the damage is done. I had a good chuckle today. Even if the DOJ finally gives Gibson their day in court, and they find them guilty...wouldn't that also implicate guilt on the part of the customs agents that allowed the shipments to pass in the first place? Oh, I could see that one going down....extradite a customs agent from his or her own native soil with the claim from another country that they violeted the laws of their own country.

(This is indeed the logic behind the Lacey Act).

I'll be honest about something: I really do love the Gibson guitars I do have (I tried to get a third but the seller backed out after the raid...shame, too). But I haven't agreed with a lot of things Gibson has done over the years. Some of the decisions have made me laugh, some of the decisions left me bewildered, and others still put a sour taste in my mouth as a player and a consumer.

Be that as it may, this is about MORE than just Henry J, and it's more than just Gibson: Going back to the original point, I am still of the impression that Gibson will probably be the first of many, and because of whatever situations they have (speculate on whatever you deem best), they were the target picked by the DOJ. I ackowledge that some of Gibson's rivals and others have thought this funny, or possibly revenge. Some probably look at this as the kneecapping of a competitor and have treated it as such. But I think it's fair enough to remind those people that laws are a funny thing...no matter what political party is in power, eventually everyone...everyone gets served.

The line needs to be drawn in the sand NOW for the sake of manufacturing and retail in the United States, and the Lacey Act needs to be repealed. I really do not care about the lobby of the hardwood floor industry which perpetuated this law. There is CITES, that is the law...this is foolishness that smacks of flying in the face of the Constitution.

I only hope Gibson can hang on long enough to be exonerated. Keep fighting...

[S Berrian (The_Sentry)]

Hmmm...in light of this act, I decided to download a Lacey Act Declaration Form and apply it to my own guitars. Commentary included in this youtube vid.

[S Sanchez (trekhead)]

S Berrian (The_Sentry), on 06 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

Hmmm...in light of this act, I decided to download a Lacey Act Declaration Form and apply it to my own guitars. Commentary included in this youtube vid.

Good Luck with that. Hopefully a SWAT team won't kick your door in, slam you against the wall as they put hand-cuffs on you and grab your guitar, all in the name of Liberty, Justice and the American Way...

[S Sanchez (trekhead)]

S Berrian (The_Sentry), on 06 September 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

Hmmm...in light of this act, I decided to download a Lacey Act Declaration Form and apply it to my own guitars. Commentary included in this youtube vid.

Good Luck with that. Hopefully a SWAT team won't kick your door in, slam you against the wall as they put hand-cuffs on you and grab your guitar, all in the name of Liberty, Justice and the American Way...

[S Berrian (The_Sentry)]

Perhaps.

The greater question: How does this law affect everyday people? So far? I have not found anyone who can fill out a Declarations Form correctly on a musical instrument. I have not found any examples online of a "good" Declarations Form completed on a musical instrument.

If the FBI busts down my door, hell...I will ask THEM if they can do this paperwork!

[S Berrian (The_Sentry)]

So, I've been keeping tabs.

First..congratulations on getting 20 thousand signatures on your petition. I think the immediate response was a whole slew of stories on the Lacey Act with choice quotes (and attack dogs) from the US Timber industry. Hey, I get that the lack of construction on new homes has put a serious kink in their business, but is it worth threatening an industry that utilizes less than 1% of all woods that are commercially logged?

I'll also admit this: Your dilemna is bad enough, but the concerns for me (as stated in the original post) are people I personally know that are affected by this act. This was my primary reason for making the video. As bad as Gibson has it, it's worse for private luthiers and small businesses. I'm glad Gibson was big enough to call attention to the Lacey Act, and I'm glad you're fighting this, but there's a whole bunch of people watching from the sidelines wondering what is going to happen to their livelihood if the Act is enforced as it was written. Most of them would be out of business as soon as a misdemeanor charge was filed.

I also think parsing out your long comments into multiple youtube videos was a good move. This allows your statements to be digested (Hey, no knock against you, but most of us don't have time or patience to sit through a 30 minute press conference.)

I do have a favor to ask: If you ever get your court date, or the next time you appear on TV (or one of your employees)...please ask one of THEM to do a Declarations Form against a guitar or another musical instrument. This is the documentation that everyday people are SUPPOSED to fill out. I honestly think this has the most impact because it is so immediate. (Hell, I'd like to see someone on the floor of Congress who voted for this law make an attempt at filling out a form. If this doesn't bring it home, I don't know what would.)

I'll keep watching. Hopefully your petition goes somewhere...

PS: I still don't know how Omar Rodriguez is selling guitars in the US with Brazilian Boards, backs, and sides. I also don't know how import guitars are getting into the United States right now. I'm not a political animal (not anymore...I personally think it's all a dog and pony show) but even someone who's completely blind has to acknowledge that the Act is being enforced on a very selective basis.

[J Kimble (FLICKOFLASH)]

Great Vid and post

[S Berrian (The_Sentry)]

Thanks, Flick. Something else to bear in mind for those that are watching MSM, or they are getting statements, or even signed documents from members of Congress, or DOJ officials: By law any government employee can not legally be held accountable or responsible in court for anything they may tell you, even if printed and signed on an agency’s letterhead.

So essentially, they can tell people whatever they want with zero liability to them. If you are found in violation of the Lacey Act, you can't use a letter from anyone in government claiming that it was "OK". The law is the law. And if people don't do the paperwork, then the burden comes back on them if they have their shipments siezed. The only assurances owners, buyers, sellers, retailers, luthiers, and companies like Gibson have?

The law needs to be amended or repealed.

[S Berrian (The_Sentry)]

Addtional thoughts: (Hell, I don't know who in the hell is reading this...but hey, you 20thosuand somethin' hits, thank you very much! )

After reviewing the warrant that was publicly posted on the NY Times, I think it's a fair thing to ask:

First, who has the ultimate responsibility of compliance with the Lacey Act? The Buyer? Or the Seller? I'm of the impression Gibson is not in a position to mirco manage a mercantile company that is procuring woods and product for them. The first alert (based on what I could make out with the warrant) that stated there was an issue was that the final consignee of the shipment in Nashville was not identified. I can't offer anything but conjecture here, but it would appear that since this wasn't identified, the customs agents at that point did a close inspection upon the shipment. What I also wasn't really clear on: Did the customs agents contact Gibson directly prior to the shipment being waived through.

And the bigger question: WHY DID THEY ALLOW THE SHIPMENT TO GO THROUGH IN THE FIRST PLACE IF THERE WERE KNOWN ISSUES AT THE BORDER? Furthermore, one has to question a raid AFTER WAIVING THE SHIPMENT THROUGH.

Isn't that sort of like, oh, I don't know...cops allowing a shipment of crack to go to a crackhouse and then conducting a raid on the crackhouse after the fact so they could bust the crackheads? Or, finding a cache of illegal weapons (based on the affidavit) and then waiving it through so they could later confiscate the weapons in question?

OK, I'm sorry...this isn't funny.

After reading that warrant, though, I'm not even certain if the DOJ is absolutely clear on who has the ultimate burden of compliance with the act. Gibson isn't in a position to oversee all of the operations of the mercantile company when it comes to securing the wood.

I do know this much, though: If Gibson is found guilty, then the system has put the onus of the law on the BUYER. That's scary in light of how the Lacey Act also applies to musical instruments. If this is the precedent, then it does become a question of someone being busted for buying a guitar...not selling a guitar, but BUYING a musical instrument since technically, the Lacey Act also applies to interstate traffic.

If there's anything that should be made clear on this case...it's where the responsibility lies....in my opinion, the only agency that can really verify all of the documentation and whether or not the product is kosher is the SELLER. Punishing the BUYER puts a very bad onus on the law which would technically create a scenario where if someone did buy something that contained contraband, the DOJ would in fact...be going into people's homes and siezing their instruments and personal property.

Does the DOJ really want that kind of precedent under this law?

[G Clontz (335guy)]

I agree with many of your sentiments. However, I do not think this will go to the extremes you have mentioned. Personally, since no other manufacturer has been harassed, I'm thinking it is a politically motivated attack. I do agree with many of your concerns over the ambiguity of the Lacey Act, like some laws, it's intentions are good, but it was poorly written. It's initial purpose was to protect American markets from illegal, cheap imported fish and meat. It wasn't until recently that "plants" ei: wood, was added. But the way the US Dept. of Justice (Injustice perhaps ) is interpreting the act in this case, is abusive and heavy handed. What could be the reason then ? Do you really think they are trying to destroy American companies in general ? Or wanting to confiscate thousands of guitars ? I don't. I do think that Gibson was chosen because of Henry's political adherence and is being made an example. Not just that. Consider this. While our eyes are on some other news, they may not watch what Congress, the Administration or the Judiciary as close. There is a lot of resentment today in the way the government is handling things. Suppose they could make out some new "villains" for the press to feed on. But like many poorly hatched government ideas, this one only goes to show us how badly our government and it's various depts. can act. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but rather a pragmatist in this matter.

I liked your video that showed your confusion over how to list the species and genus and species of those woods. You are right to be confused, as the names mahogany, rosewood, maple and ebony as well, are merely generic names for types of various trees which are in the hundreds. Even if you said something was made from Honduran Mahogany, there are numerous species of different trees in Honduras labeled as "mahogany". I know because I used to run a hardwood flooring company and we used imports from all over the world. I had to learn that birch from so and so, was NOT the same as birch from somewhere else. And this applies to every tree there is, with few exceptions. I could give you many examples, but suffice it to say, no end user will know that info. Only the original harvester of that particular tree. So it is ludicrous to think that the person shipping a guitar would be able to fill out those forms correctly.

No, the US government is bullying Gibson for some yet, unknown reason. Whatever the reason is, it is stupid and makes our government seem very oppressive. Long live liberty !

[S Berrian (The_Sentry)]

G Clontz (335guy), on 08 November 2011 - 04:13 AM, said:

I agree with many of your sentiments. However, I do not think this will go to the extremes you have mentioned. Personally, since no other manufacturer has been harassed, I'm thinking it is a politically motivated attack. I do agree with many of your concerns over the ambiguity of the Lacey Act, like some laws, it's intentions are good, but it was poorly written. It's initial purpose was to protect American markets from illegal, cheap imported fish and meat. It wasn't until recently that "plants" ei: wood, was added. But the way the US Dept. of Justice (Injustice perhaps ) is interpreting the act in this case, is abusive and heavy handed. What could be the reason then ? Do you really think they are trying to destroy American companies in general ? Or wanting to confiscate thousands of guitars ? I don't. I do think that Gibson was chosen because of Henry's political adherence and is being made an example. Not just that. Consider this. While our eyes are on some other news, they may not watch what Congress, the Administration or the Judiciary as close. There is a lot of resentment today in the way the government is handling things. Suppose they could make out some new "villains" for the press to feed on. But like many poorly hatched government ideas, this one only goes to show us how badly our government and it's various depts. can act. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but rather a pragmatist in this matter.

I liked your video that showed your confusion over how to list the species and genus and species of those woods. You are right to be confused, as the names mahogany, rosewood, maple and ebony as well, are merely generic names for types of various trees which are in the hundreds. Even if you said something was made from Honduran Mahogany, there are numerous species of different trees in Honduras labeled as "mahogany". I know because I used to run a hardwood flooring company and we used imports from all over the world. I had to learn that birch from so and so, was NOT the same as birch from somewhere else. And this applies to every tree there is, with few exceptions. I could give you many examples, but suffice it to say, no end user will know that info. Only the original harvester of that particular tree. So it is ludicrous to think that the person shipping a guitar would be able to fill out those forms correctly.

No, the US government is bullying Gibson for some yet, unknown reason. Whatever the reason is, it is stupid and makes our government seem very oppressive. Long live liberty !

I can't really refute your points. There are 2 major problems with this law as it stands now. First, because it is so broad, the DOJ has taken the stance of selectively enforcing the law. How is it possible to do this WITHOUT accusations of political cronyism? Who is making the determinations as to who, and who does not get investigated? What is the criteria?

I'm still a bit dismayed that on one hand, the hammer has come down hard on Gibson...yet I can easily go to numerous websites and find guitars for sale comprised of all sorts of materials that are supposedly contraband. (And no, I don't buy the story that they sat on the wood for 30 or 40 years. Call me a skeptic. LOL)

The second issue: Politicians come and go. Law enforcement officials come and go. But the laws themselves remain. One has to assume that if a law is susceptible to abuse of power, it ultimately WILL be abused. I am still unclear as to who bears the onus of the law (buyer or seller), how far it extends as far as interstate traffic, and general size of items that are under the domain of the Lacey Act. Is someone going to get popped for having a Gucci handbag? I really, honestly don't know.

Incidentally, I want to thank Gibson for putting me in the finals for your "Fight for Your Right to Rock" contest! I honestly don't know what my chances are (I watched the other videos...2 of them have excellent production values vs. the home video that I cut), but at this point I think the important thing is just keep the torch going, and keep awareness about the Lacey Act in play. Stated again...I think the Fed has chilled out a bit since this last raid, but that law is still in play, and at any given time enforcement of it CAN change...and no one in the DOJ, Congress, or the White House is legally responsible or liable in terms of how that law is enforced...even if they release a statement with official letterhead and their respective signatures on it.

Perhaps the greater question is "What kind of society do we really want to live in?" I don't know about you, but I don't want to be defined as a criminal under the laws simply for owning something made out of wood. Or animal material. I understand that protecting the environment is important, but if it comes at the expense of my freedom or disallows me from being a law abiding citizen I am of the impression the law needs to be challenged.

Thanks again for watching my video. Have a great weekend!

[R May (largedude)]

Sentry, where do you stand in light of Gibson's settlement regarding this issue, and especially with Taylor's approach to wood sourcing?
Taylor seems to have avoided the poo pile Gibson stepped in, by direct investment in a foreign wood sourcing company.